Maidan camp, March 24, 2014.
Oleksandr Suprunyuk, Netishyn town, Khmelnytsky region, entrepreneur.
- Why did you come to the Maidan? When exactly did you
decide to park at the place and what grassroot movements took place at the
Maidan overall? Who came and when? Which movements
developed? Members of which movements have left or lost interest? What is
happening now?
This is not my
first time to be at the Maidan. I have teamed up with the Asambleya (The Assembly) civil movement group and The Small and Medium-size Enterprises in Ukraine, as well as ‘Vilnyi Prostir’ civil movement. We have actively participated in various protests, car rallies and
other activities to defend our
members and resist the passing of the draconian Tax Lawbook in 2010.
In 2010 we pitched tents in the Maidan. They got torn down. There’s nothing new in presence here. But this particular Maidan –
probably it was our last hope for saving Ukraine from all this oppression which
Yanukovych and his criminal regime has brought along. It inoculated totalitarianism
in Ukraine which practically began to turn into a dictator’s sanctuary where I
personally had two options – either run away from the country or be opressed
and be a person with no future.
That’s why I had no other choice than to be here, in the Maidan – for everything that we had been doing at the Maidan since 2004, for the active position that we have taken up in Ukraine – to defend the rights of entrepreneurs and regular citizens of Ukraine. I don’t think I would have been able to avoid this government’s criminal opressions if it has won.
That’s why I had no other choice than to be here, in the Maidan – for everything that we had been doing at the Maidan since 2004, for the active position that we have taken up in Ukraine – to defend the rights of entrepreneurs and regular citizens of Ukraine. I don’t think I would have been able to avoid this government’s criminal opressions if it has won.
- What other movements did take place?
I did not feel the need to lead or coordinate
people. I just came to this Maidan as a common citizen. This Maidan is a very
unique community of people who are self-organized based on the ideas that I
see. This is the highest expression of organization when the state plays
minimal role and the society begins to develop a new country by cooperation and
support. Up until recently I had not seen a neccesity to guide or to direct
anybody. I have attempted to hold various workshops, but recent events forced
me to physically defend myself, my teammates, comrades and brothers here, in
this Maidan. Unfortunately, I had no time for theoretical operations and to
share the experience. I’ve been here since November 23rd. I came here on
November 21st when the very first protests of journalists and students took
place. I asked my son to come and see what was happening. He studies philosophy
at Shevchenko University. Next day he came here on his own free will. On
November 2nd we held a townsmeeting in Slavuta which is a regional center of
Khmelnytskyi oblast (region). This is where we’ve created the Shtab Sprotyvu
(Resistance Headquarter), next day I came here to coordinate our actions with
Slavuta and Netishyn Headquarters. And this is where we have stayed since
November 23rd on, my son and daughter and I, my comrades from the Assambleya
and the Vilnyi Prostir and other organizations that we have had since the Tax
Maidan and other protests. We have always had friends here. One of them, my
friend from Kirovohrad oblast (region) Vitya Chalenko, was killed. When these
students were chased away, we have decided to provide people with food because
it was a big problem before December. The entire Maidan had hundreds of
thousands of people but the meals were spontaneous, there was no hot food. We
are very grateful to the people of Kyiv for their active help back then and
even now because enough has been provided even till now. I also did have a
kitchenette at the Slavuta fellowship, which we have brought here. My friends
and I had a bus that was transformed into a mobile office. It had sleeping
berths, workstation for journalists. We have held meetings there. We brought
this bus, set up a field kitchen and the tents that we had. Then we started
feeding the Maidan. Next to us, there was another field kitchen organized by
students in November. They were making hot tea here and we have always
collaborated with them. Guys from Lviv had put out their canteen. So the three of our entities helped each
other. Overall individual entities, communities helped one another. Next to us,
sotnyas (Сossack squads) were founded. A military encampment was organized
although unarmed. We felt there was a need for more serious self-organization
because there have been threats and arms were used against us. We decided to
form a sotnya – 38th Sotnya. After the February 20th fatalities when three of
our guys were killed, we have named our squad in one of the victim’s memory. We
are Ustym Holodnyuk 38th Sotnya.
In addition we have decided to fill in the void at the
Maidan by publishing a newspaper titled ‘Terytoriya Voli’ (Freedom Territory). These are just
the projects that have been founded here, during the Maidan 2014 in Kyiv.
- As far as Territory Communities go,
you collaborated with Rimma Bilotserkivska.
Yes, this is under
Vilnyi Prostir (Freedom Space). We are developing three directions – Self-defence,
Collaboration and Cooperation. In fact this is the foundation of the Maidan
movement. And maybe the fact
that it has developed effortlessly proves that we were working in the right
direction. Now everybody talks about the Territory Communities. Pretty much all
the demands to the EU are in step with the demands we voice in the Maidan,
right? The demand for decentralisation and passing the law for local self-government empowerment distribution,
is also in step with the Territory Communities. How far ‘they’ will go in
passing the laws is another matter but it is the Territory Communities that
will empower each individual.
- And by ‘them’ you mean the Territory Communities
initiators?
No, not the
initiators but those who stole this power from us – oligarchs and our legislative servants.
- What frictions or conflicts between
the advocacy groups took place at various points? Or between the advocacy
groups and people? Were there conflicts regarding, for instance, the
Opposition, ‘Svoboda’ (nationalist party), and overall different forces in the
Maidan?
The Maidan can be different at any given time. It has been evolving, transforming based on challenges we had to face. In the beginning it had a student, nightclub vibe,
positive and joyful though the demands voiced were pretty serious: EU etc. When
they were chased away, things got much more radical, and people were ready to firmly defend their rights but again
– these were peaceful protests, and a proper reaction was always one step away.
But every time it was a reaction of peaceful people to our government’s
challenges, which were impersonated in the Berkut (special police force) or in
‘law enforcement agencies’ and their rather terrorist actions. Apart from the
official actions the government also took unofficial actions - kidnappings,
threats, unlawful arrests, for instance, for having a fuel canister in the car.
It is not prohibited, and there can’t be even a debate about it. Not to mention
the sanctions for firewood in the cars, or for a peaceful auto rally protest to
the president’s house.
And regarding your question about
conflicts at the Maidan… They did take place after December 10th-11th. We stood here
completely unarmed, with no means of defence, with no shields or canes – against
the fully armed Berkut and internal troops. This line was crossed near
Shevchenko Region Court where Vasylkiv terrorists were judged. We then blocked
the Berkut by puncturing their tires, and the Berkut surrendered, and we took
them out of the buses.
That's when conflicts started because
on November 30th some people witnessed beating, breaking of arms and legs of
students, an hour before that they had witnessed this same Berkut from the bus
– beating the
hell out of people, when alive flesh was torn by sharp objects and then
tissues, muscles and legs were
fractured. That’s when people were very angry or even antagonistic. They
demanded immediate justice, or simply lynching because the government cynically
justified cruelty of the police while punishing people for peaceful declaration
of will. That was a serious conflict when people were hard to stop. Some
protesters were trying to let them through and the other half was ready
to tear them apart. It was a conflict with a certain part of the protesters.
Later, when you start talking to those people and explain, things would calm
down, and we did manage to stop them, but ever since conflicts like this took
place. Clearly, there always were double agents who were making things harder,
who were trying to turn all the Maidan into an uncontrollable slaughter.
We succeeded to keep everything under
control until the very end of the opposition. Because this time there were no pogroms,
no cars being burned etc. – we did not do any of that. Till the most recent
time some fools tried to provoke – or maybe just out of stupidity – they
wanted to break a ‘Nike’ shop window. But right away he was taken up on stage
and for half an hour lectured first by the worldly, then by priesthood.
Self-defence assigned guards near the store, they covered it with a shield,
next morning the owners came over and fixed everything. But of course, after
this slaughter took place and these terrible events of February 18th-20th this
crowd was impossible to stop.
- What about other conflicts between
the Maidan participants, for instance, splitting the budget, or maybe problems
choosing who would go on stage?
There is
constantly a conflict of interests here at the Maidan – between political part, parties,
parliament part of the parties vs the community. We did bear this Opposition.
We knew their cost very well. Many people had illusions that at the end got
dispelled. We saw that dullness of the Opposition. They are hesitant and inert,
they did not have a plan here at the Maidan, thus they bore with us and we bore
with them. But good thing is that while we had such Parliament Opposition
(which now is our government and is showing its paces) – our remains of
illusions about relying on some other forces were dispelled. Secondly, we bore with that Opposition but in the
meantime it was legitimate, because we approved of it. This gave certain
opportunities for informal civil movements (about 3-5% of the Maidan were
represented as parties while the amount of people in the civil organizations
was not much bigger). Those were just the people who arrived here and united
based on locations they were from, or they would stand together on barricades, meet one another and
form a spontaneous association. For instance, we came from Khmelnytskyi oblast
and immediately met Lviv guys, we also met students, youth, and that is how we
grouped together. Some people dropped out, other people we did not like – that
is how associations formed. What is good about this Opposition is that if only
informal associations stayed here, we would all have broken up after a few
days. But here – we bore the Opposition on the stage, we resented it, but we
could also discuss amongst ourselves. This is what helped us to not fall apart.
We do have a sad experience of the previous Maidan falling apart just because
we had no clear structure.
- Seems like those two are not enemies but competitors – Yanukovych and official government vs
Opposition?
It was clear that
there were two clans who were fighting and are fighting now for the power in
Ukraine. Again, they all are controlled by oligarchs. Oligarchs can be local, regional, but also
all-Ukrainian or even transnational. But we consider only these five families –
Akhmetovs, Pinchuks and that’s it. But oligarchs are the ones who have power,
money and business in one. They use their power in order to accumulate capital. They are
right on locations. And so they are in a conflict, and they fight for the
power, and there are civil movements – people who are rid of this power. And we
learned that power is not something to fight for, so we approach these various
clans, one after another, and support them, while some of them fool us less and
the other ones do more. But what’s happenning now is we understand that this
power embodied by both of them are in the past, and we need to form a new
political elite. We need a powerful civil movement. We understand it all
perfectly but everybody sees it differently, and that’s where we have a problem
because once we try to map something, politicians immediately show up. That’s
how it had been up until recently, and the politicians would either cut things
off, or tear them down, or head them and then do what happenned to the Maidan
Civil Movement or Narodna Rada (People’s Union) and to other powerful movements.
Again, if power that exists now relied on people’s support, if they could share
their power, they would have had a very powerful ally. But in fact they rid
themselves of a powerful organization, which they could control actions
through. There are a few dozens of groups at the Maidan who are in touch with
one another and who are easy to manipulate because they don’t have access to
all the information. Unfortunately, there always have been double agents;
absolutely there are Russian double agents here, and the Party of Regions
agents who are trying to manipulate the Maidan.
That is dangerous because if they succeed ‘rocking’, directing all the
anger against this current government – they will succeed destabilizing the
state of Ukraine, which is very beneficial for Putin. Because if the country is
a mess and there is no legitimate government, nobody will give us money. And
without loans and outside help that Europe, America, Japan and other countries
are seriously supplying (like there once was Marshall Plan for Europe), there
is no hope that we can get out of this hole Yanukovych and other oligarchs
forced us into. If we are under these double agents’ thumb, we can lose Ukraine.
- You mentioned you were trying to
build up horizontal connections.
From day one there were little crowds and ideas, let’s say, a few tents
next to one another started communication, “Let’s make an association, for
example, ‘The Maidan’, or a coordinating committee based on the tents,
or based on organizations, – basically, let’s found an association that would
coordinate the Maidan’s actions. There were various entities, various naïve
people who came here for the first time, god knows where from. They had just
gotten up after a sopor; they had been making a living somewhere and suddenly
became revolutionaries, with no experience and with a naïve vision of all of
this. They think they can come, slam fist on the table – and everything will
get clear. ‘All the bastards, everybody has to get kicked out, we have to take
everything and split – and everything will be good’. And there were more
serious associations that would see things more positively; they wanted an
organization behind them named ‘The Maidan’. And immediately ‘Viche (Assembly)’
announced that they were the ones who founded
‘The Maidan’. Imagine, tomorrow we have to create such an organization
and today they steal the idea and announce it.
And for instance, the way it happened to 'The Maidan'. It was announced, people
were eager, ‘we
are ready to work, we are holding a speech already’. Two days later – nobody
works any more and not even going to. Our comrade came to Trade Unions House
and said, ‘sign me up for The Maidan organization’ – ‘What is The Maidan?’
Nobody knew anything, they just made a note somewhere on a piece of paper. Then
when they saw people took an active interest, that there was the tent – they
registered The Maidan organization. But where is it now?
- When barricades on Hrushevskyi street started expanding
Yatsenyuk was yelling from the stage 'The Maidan is expanding'.
The thing is…
- A question about money.
When there were self-organized money boxes, some people would come and say,
'You only spend for yourselves'. They would say, 'You all split into small
groups while there must be just one budget'.
Apart from rumours – I don’t know any real proof of
massive abuse of finances or a massive produce thefts. I personally was
receiving produce from Trade Unions House and I have seen all these moneyboxes.
And some scam, as always, took place. Masked under charity, for example, for
the cancerous kids. These scambags didn’t go anywhere. And the fact that they
were trying to feast at the Maidan is pretty clear. I once happened to see an
instruction of the Security Service of Ukrainian Rebel Army ‘How to identify
agents of the NKVD (Soviet Internal Affairs Commisariat)’. These agents want to
take leading positions that deal with employment, information, decision-making
and always finances… They damage us by sabotaging decisions in the most crucial
moment. Also – it was always spreading information about money theft. This
always causes failure of people’s trust. But let me tell you, at this Maidan
all of these abuses, compared to all that bureaucratic system that we have had,
are like day and night. I even once saw a moneybox that some kids were walking
with for Maydan needs all the way near Ocean Plaza, 5 kilometres away from the
Maidan. Clearly, these were not from the Maidan.
At some point, money collections were
centralized. Expences were huge. The Opposition, of course, also chip in for
the Maidan… The stage costs money and a
bio toilet is 250 hryvnyas a day. We paid half a million for the Trade Union
House rent. We paid from our own pocket, or from oligarchs’ pockets, but also from the
people’s money box. But, again, people did not trust common moneyboxes. That’s
why some money was chipped into a common box and some of it they would bring
directly to our kitchen, or just bring fuel… Sometimes they would bring money,
sometimes produce, and 80-90% of our supplies were not coming from the
centralized box. Especially because our money was also collected on locations
we had come from. People trusted us
because they knew what we did here. We reported. In Slavuta we collected about
a hundred thousand hryvnyas, and that is only in one region. Same amount was
collected in Netishyn, maybe even more. Moreover, more than a thousand people
were sent over in the first two months. A big work was done; people supplied
almost all of the Maidan.
- How long did it take to collect a
hundred thousand Hryvnyas?
That is what they
sent to the Maidan just financially, in the first two months. But also they
sent buses with people. People from Kirovohrad oblast, Vinnytsya oblast, Odessa
would come to us and bring us warm cloths, everything was constantly refilled
here.
- How do you supply yourself with food?
What do you know about movements that supplied the Maidan with food? Like, for
instanstance, in other countries people go to supermarkets and demand food.
We didn’t go to
the extent of demanding. What happened was people from WOG would come and give
coupons for generators. It’s clear that the owner is a person from the Party of
Regions. Possibly, they were doing it to neutralize the negativity that people
felt against the party and their boycot of WOG. But I know they had given out a
few tons of fuel in a few days.
‘Epicenter’ was buying their way out, too. We had a few dozens of volonteers who
assigned themselves in the kitchen. We would announce what we were missing –
and they immediately would bring all we needed. From food to equipment to
tents, to generators – people were ready to help with anything they could.
Those are the people who could not be standing here, from various social
standings. Poor people who have four
kids brought us food they cooked. Technically they took it away from their
kids. A 12-year-old girl brought us a piece of chocolate. But also there were
high officials who would bring dozens of kilos of frozen chickens. That was a
judge of Supreme Court. For the Automaidan (car rally), a Vice Minister joined
us. It does not matter if she was acting or not – she was still an official.
When the Automaidan went to Yanukovych’s home… It would be nice to show a
picture to Medvedev and Putin how ‘bums’ go to Yanukovych’s. First go ‘Range
Rover’, ‘Mazda X7’, ‘Toyota Prado’ etc. Those are the ones that were talked
about on Russian TV as sloths and bums that were standing in the Maidan. That
was on the 29th of December. We tried to yell through to him here in the
Maidan. We didn’t get through – so we went to Mezhyhirya to knock his door.
- How was the Automaidan organized?
It was organized
same way everything was organized at the Maidan... Everybody did what they
could and what they felt had to be done. We did an Automaidan, there was an
Automaidan that other people did, it was not a unique invention. There was a Road
Control – those guys were opposing the road militia. By learning from experience, people
would unite and act. But then every time something unexpected would happen.
Sometimes coming from the government, sometimes from the Opposition. That’s how
the Maidan was unique – it had no single governace but a civil movement was
huge. The Automaidan is a civil movement, too. It all happened one after
another: first students got out and showed themselves. Then guys, men, afghani
veterans stood out and did not let the Berkut in here, so that gave a
psychological victory. Then other guys showed up, Ihor Lutsenko, some more guys
from the Maidan, Ruslana. Then the Automaidan shone, next there was a car
rally, next something else happenned. Every time there was some spontaneous
unrest. Who expected, who could have possibly planned arresting the Berkut near
the Shevchenko Region Court on Peremoha prospect? Nobody. The Automaidan simply
noticed them and blocked and, instead of running away, they started pushing for
their rights and such a huge crowd accumulated that at 11 o’clock there
were about 50 people but at 11.30 pm it was a few thousands of cars, and so
many people that the Berkut could not physically run away from there. Who
expected that? Nobody. This kind of things troubles the society.
- But they could not get together like
that all the time. They did it often back then, but now?
Who would have
known that it was possible to stand through in the Maidan for 4 months? We
laughed that we would celebrate the 8th of March in the Maidan, even New Year
in the Maidan was just a joke. But it turned out to be real, and now at least
until the elections, this Maidan will be standing. Not as big as it is now, it
does not need to be this big.
The ones who came
here first – some of them stayed, some of them maybe got disappointed or
because of some things to do could not stand here, but every time a new type of people would show up here who would
care for these problems. I know Kyivans who passively supported, but
after January 19th, after events on Hrushevskyi street, when people were
already shot, they understood. They
said, ‘Now, this is our business. They are already knocking on our windows and doors’. And they came
out here to the Maidan. They do not sit here all day long, but every day they
come here for two or three hours. There are Kyivans in our sotnya who come here
at spare time, they take shifts, take training etc. It’s already a few dozens
of people who are always here at their spare time.
- Again, as far as money goes. The
common money box of the Maidan and your movement. How can one explain people’s
standing for a few weeks, how were they supplied? What did they say to their
bosses when they left their jobs for such a long time?
We already spoke
about the money. As far as people’s motivation
goes – some people are businessmen like me. I have department heads, I
have a wife who is substituting me over there so I can be here almost all the
time. I can come home for a day or two and solve some urgent matters, then
everything keeps going. There are other guys who are laid off, some business
people closed their small businesses and are staying here because they think
this is the place to be. There are people whose bosses let them go because they
could not go themselves. Those are the least but they do exist. There are
people who left their work. There are these girls here who have been at the
Maidan for 4 months, and their bosses just covered for them. Obviously, they
don’t get paid. Some people take shifts – so they come here for a few days and
then come back to work. Many people are working but they are on a constant
standby. They come here at the first sign. Just like me. When on December 10-11th
there were three thousand people, or even less, and when an assault happened –
dozens of thousands Kyivans came and protected the Maidan. Same thing happened
on Hrushevskyi Street. So when needed - people do come here. There is a cartoon
in which somebody is saying to Yanukovych, ‘you said to beat them up – and we
did but they multiplied. Maybe that’s how they reproduce.’ It already went so
far that people react to this aggression properly. Not by aggression but by
coming here and defending themselves and others because they are fed up. So
don’t get these illusions that the Maidan is dissipating now. If there is a
need – people come.
- Does a sotnya member move to another
sotnya because of looting or violence or
too tough rules in this sotnya? And what about this position of some people ‘I
want to kick Yanukovych off but I don’t want to go to barricades and put myself
under the bullets.’? Should one shoot or just defend
themselves? Different ways of using violence. There is a saying ‘Keep the arms
but try your best to minimize its use’. When did your ideas regarding arms use
change?
A question
regarding violence in sotnyas is rather strange, I didn’t notice that. I can’t
say that some sotnyas have bullying or mobstery. Until this junta crossed
the line, the Maidan was very tolerant, very peaceful. There were isolated
cases, for instance, when ‘Afghanis’, people who had gone through hard
challenges and contusions, would collapse. But they sorted things out among
themselves. Another thing is our sotnya in particular – there is a certain politics inside
the sotnya. We have discipline. Alcohol is banned. We have a tough control and
a requirement for nobody to cross the sotnya’s borders, i.e. Maidan’s borders.
The reason for this, again, is that up until recently we were in a hostile encirclement. As of
today there are double agents who can create a precendent or provoke a fight.
For example, recently a guy was killed outside the Maidan. Some things are
dangerous for our people, thus we made such a decision. Some sotnyas take it
more easy, people there can come and go. They don’t have such a record. If
there is a sleeping berth, you are staying, if there is no – you go elsewhere.
So it depends on an inside politics.
We don’t take part
in patrolling
outside the Maidan. Only if there is a communal need, for example, searching
for the killed ones in the woods, which took place this Sunday, or
reinforcement of Verhovna Rada’s
(Parliament) guard. We don’t participate in things that other sotnyas do,
like guarding buisinesses or spaces by applications. Only once did we help
identifying double agents who came over to our friends. These friends prepared
food for us. So while a restaurant was preparing food for us, some shady
representatives of pseudo-‘Samooborona (Self-defence)’ came over and asked if
they wanted to help out Samooborona. We decided to identify the guys. We came
at the time they set but these guys did not show up. So we put a patrol near
the place for a few hours to prevent a fight.
- To shoot or to defend yourself? How
do you use arms?
Regarding the
arms. Information about the use of the arms in the Maidan is blown out of proportions. Those
were the rumours. I have seen very few isolated cases when people came to the
Maidan with arms. Plus it was either a hunters rifle, or a pistol that shoots with little
balls. That was an air pistol that does not even require a permit. But regarding AKs in the Maidan – they
appeared only after February 20th. Maybe somebody has seen something but I
didn’t. In our sotnya, there is still no arms. After Russia attacked Crimea, we
bought dummy
deactivated AKMs and AK-47s for the guys to get training because we don’t know
further actions of Russia and we have to be ready. But in general – even in the past I was
for the permit for arms for all the proper people who fit certain criteria. Now
I am for every adult person, a man and as an option a woman, to take a certain
course and get accepted to Samooborona, like People’s Militia, like, for
instance, in Germany or Switzerland and other countries, and for them to be
able to defend themselves, their family and their country. Because now we see
that we have an unarmed and combat-inaffective army and we are defenceless.
- In Switzerland, for instance,
everybody has arms at home but they are packed and sealed.
That’s a technical
question. It should not be like, ‘I’ve taken an AK and walk around wherever I
want’. It should be a tough responsibility and a criminal liability for wrongful use of arms.
- When did arms appear in the Maidan?
What do you think about its use? Who used the arms? What did you think when it
appeared? How were you getting used to its use?
When a human is
under a threat, when you can be killed for real, when against you is an armada
of people who are supposed to be defending you but instead they are trying to
kill and destroy you... the reaction is only one – to defend yourself, your
friends and your country in all possible ways. And I was ready to take arms and
defend. If somebody had given it to me, I would have taken it.
- I know you had a certain relationship to
masks and canes...
Let me finish
telling about February 18th through 20th events. It was a slaughter, and two out of three
guys from our sotnya who died, died not because they had arms but because they
were holding stretches. One of them, Vitya Chmilenko, is on a video. He ran with
stretches and bent down to take the injured – and immediately fell because he
got shot. He did not have arms in his hands. Ustym Holodnyuk was covering a
hand-barrow with a shield and was approaching the injured in order to get him.
- Is it possible hand barrows were mistaken for smith else?
Absolutely not. How can red hand
barrows be confused for anything?..
Masks, helmets and
canes were needed when there was a threat. They were needed because people were
afraid of being identified and later repressed in case we lose or in case we
get found in the Maidan. Now that Yanukovych is kicked off and there is no threat
– it is absurd to walk equipped, with masks, with arms around the Maidan. Not only it is not necessary, but
also it is dangerous. Masks let double agents blend in. But if the Maidan
people do not wear masks – then whoever is wearing a mask has a reason to mask
their face because they act illegally against the Maidan, against Ukraine. Same
goes for a knife. One says, 'What if somebody attacks you
and you don't have a knife…'. I am sorry but if you don't have a knife, it is
easy to identify somebody who has a knife, i.e. a criminal. But if everybody
walks around the Maidan with a knife…, then… sorry. And it's very dangerous if
16-year-old kids walk around with arms. He is still playing and he wants to
shoot, to show how big of a hero he is, to raise his status in his own eyes. It
is very dangerous.
- TV showed that The Pravyi Sektor (Right Sector) in
Khmelnytskyi oblast stood out for The Territory
Communities. People were yelling to them, ‘take off your masks’, they were
replying, ‘this is for protection’. Is it The Pravyi Sektor, who got to push
for The Territory Communities, did they do it before? What do you think?
I have a big question, what is The
Pravyi Sektor? If I put a badge, a shevron and a mask – and I say that I am The
Pravyi Sektor…
- But the Party of Pravyi Sektor?
The party is the party, but what about
their identity? They came over and said they were The Pravyi Sektor. These formations are not necessarily
The Pravyi Sektor but different kinds of people can be using their identity.
Unfortunately, we are underestimating it now but everybody who is now at the
Maidan is getting pulled back to his or her locations. While we are here in the
Maidan, fighting and defending everybody’s freedom – all kinds of achievers are
getting through into various organizations, pretending to be the Pravyi Sektor
or the Samooborona and trying to rule. Some of them come over here when there is no danger to show
up, or to sign up to a sotnya. They spend a day or two – and then come back to
their location and tell they are Samooborona already, and they are in a sotnya,
and are trying to get some benefits for themselves. So claiming they are the Pravyi Sektor…
I don’t know this case and I don’t know who they were.
- When did the Pravyi Sektor appear in the Maidan?
In early December I met a few guys, one
of them was from the Bilyi Molot (White Hammer), he said it turned into the
Pravyi Sektor. They shone off on Hrushevskyi street because they took responsibility for all
those actions. From what I know, their
role was not much bigger than anybody else’s. The Ultras (football fans) are not Pravyi Sektor, so I was
explained. Maybe I am wrong but guys explained me that the Ultras were the most
active ones on Hrushevskyi street. They fought till the end, they hate the
Berkut because they always have conflicts with them. That's why all the Ultras,
all of these football fans, even the ones of 'Shakhtar' and 'Metalist', stood
out in solidarity with the Kyiv Ultras. That is a unique case that they
announced truce for the
time of struggle for Ukraine’s undependence. Although before they always would
identify themselves as apolitical.
As far as the Pravyi Sektor goes, there
are many questions. Everybody knows the UNA-UNSO (Ukrainian People’s Assembly – Ukrainian National Solidarity Organization). Also, there
is the Bilyi Molot, an ultraright organization. They united into one political
force. I am worried that there are criminals there who insinuate that they are
Pravyi Sektor. I don't know if they really are but they are undermining this
organization. If this organization really puts stake on them then I am very
alarmed.
- Where there people from the Pravyi Sector in your sotnya?
There are a few people who moved from
our sotnya to the Pravyi Sektor. We are still in touch. We take part in some
actions together, with Cossacks and the Sektor. We used to be allies, we fought
together… What matters is the way they will act further on… I can’t say
anything bad about them. There is a problem with organizations like The Narnia
(teenage ultraright organization)…
- There were different street happenings outside the Maidan. What
was your reaction on some unannounced bank raids, as well as going
outside the Maidan's territory with no announcement and on certain attacks
that none of the parties
involved want to announce? How were decisions being made about the Hrushevskyi
Street? Was there an initiator? How a decisions made about happenings? How do
people join these movements? What do objectors do?
There are many double agents and
inexperienced people who don't understand these movements well. They want to
take ultrarevolutionary actions that would cause upredictable effects, or rather
effects we don't want, so we end up being in a trouble. Maybe they are, again,
from the Narnia – I don’t know where this organization has come from. For
instance, a raid is happening as though it was for revolutionary needs but it
turns out to be just an attempt to mask the criminal actions that we fought
against. In those same spaces papers, servers are being destroyed in order to
mask the footprints. And this is being done with the hands of the
revolutionaries who wholeheartedly believe that’s the way but don’t understand
the effect. For instance, the Verhovna Rada is doing what should not have been
done – it is annulling the Language Law, which causes all the effects.
Secondly, here in the Maidan, it’s a gathering of warriors, who are ready to go
into the battle and die for the idea but note that these people are also
hyperactive, and some of them already have had problems and are not necessarily
ideal revolutionaries. But we don’t investigate, and if he is with us – he’s
with us, no questions asked. I don’t mean the ones who spent months here. For
example, the 19th sotnya guarded the Prosecutor Pshonka’s estate. They came and
did not even want to step on those rugs; they did not want to dirty them… Then
two weeks later when they came, they saw what had happened… Our guys guarded
Yanukovych’s estate for the first two days. Tourists come who have not done a
thing but they end up bragging and grabbing those guys and destroying
everything saying, ‘this is ours. He stole it from us’. This looting is being
done not by the ones who’ve been here from day one, but by the tourists and the
ones who came over later. There are kids like the ones who have found a spot in
KMDA (Kyiv Mayor’s Office), they walked around drunk and stole everything they
could.
- Do they belong to sotnyas?
They drew sotnyas for themselves, there
are clones of our sotnya, or rather there used to be. There are many of these winners now.
They will tell you that they strangled the Berkut with their
bare hands, although theye were not even close. Here legal actions
are needed. Let me tell you about a luminary who brought tourists here and
yelled, 'Let me in because I was here'. He showed them that this water canon
was burned by him personally. But these are 'the overhead costs’. These are the
negative things that revolution brings along.
- How were decisions being made – regarding Hrushevskyi
street, or regarding protests?
That's the question that was asked when
Ihor Lutsenko
and Bulatov were taken captive and when people did not hear clear decisions
from the politicians. It was just a rebellion, not even a provocation because
it was not even planned. Imagine these guys went there, begged the Berkut to
let them through for half an hour, then went provocations and shots from
Berkut, then went stones. If it were a provocation, the stones would have been
prepared, right? But provocation is putting up a bail of the Berkut and
blocking the road.
Then at some point tires showed
up, somebody got an idea to use tires. If it were a provocation, they would
have been prepared, right? Then in an hour or two first Molotov cocktails flew
out, I had people run over here asking for fuel. And all the canisters that I
had here for generators were gone. Then there were no bottles; they went to
look for bottles. None of this was prepared, it was not a provocation – it was
a rebellion.
- What do objectors do?
Objectors leave voluntarily or the ones
who do not want to take part in the opposition – they just sit in the tents… He
does not agree with going to Hrushevskyi street to fight against the Berkut –so
he is doing something here in the Maidan. Or the bums – they just continue
living. They have eaten – and off they go to sleep.
- There was a moment when first day on the Hrushevskyi
street one of the representatives of the Svoboda party urged to go back to the Maidan because tomorrow help
would come. When everything was striking – they urged to go back.
Those were the politicians'
announcements from the tribune. From the standpoint of the country’s image,
they distanced themselves from the events that the world took as controversial.
The armed opposition was not taken very properly, by the foreign media or by
politicians. So the distancing gave an opportunity to the Parliament Opposition
to not take responsibility. But also to not announce mobilization and to leave
the Maidan exposed (because everybody went to Hrushevskyi street), and the
Maidan could be taken without a hand’s turn. I think this position is not very
decent, to put it mildly. I personally called places and asked, ‘Is the
mobilization announced?’ – ‘No, no.’ – ‘What are you waiting for?’ – ‘For what
the party will say.’ The mobilization easily could have been announced. They
could have said, ‘we are guarding the Maidan. We have nothing to do with the
violent Hrushevskyi street events. Period.’
- What did you think and feel when Yanukovych ran away and
the government representatives were absent?
I don't remember all of it because I
had other problems at the time. On February 18th we technically had our sotnya
broken in the Mariinskyi Park. Some people came over to the Maidan to pick up Molotov cocktails and bring them back to
the sotnya, because we were cut in half on Shovkovychna street. We then were
unable to get through to our people. They were slammed there, some people were injured,
nine people were blocked on a roof on the 18th. They were looked for there but
they sat out. We got to take them out only next day. Some of them dissipated
and at night they got out of the envelopment. At night our tent town burned
down, this bus burned down, many papers burned down, including the papers on
this sotnya. There were no contacts left, the captain was very heavily beaten
up and his family drove him away and hid him.
Then people who were getting out of the
envelopment could not find us and we could not find them. We considered many of
them dead. Four of them turned out to have been captive till the 21st. I had
problems, on the 21st was this execution, three of our guys got killed. There
was no euphoria, nothing, there was only a relief that we won, but at what
cost?.. That’s the tune we had. It was
mourning.
- What was the Opposition busy with at the time, squabbling
over the jobs?
The opposition was busy with its work.
Don't blame them. Once somebody is in
the government, we list them as public enemies. They are the same humans. I
personally know dozens of deputies. They are different. They are just like us.
Some simple people sell themselves for 200 hryvnyas but these ones sell
themselves for 2 millions. What's the difference between them? If you sell
yourself for 200 hryvnyas then for 2 millions you would sell yourself even
more... But then e has the right to critisize the deputee he sold his vote
to. There are normal people among them –
such as Lesya Orobets who was taking people out and saving our captain…
- Is it just the matter of the system, of its hierarchy?
Yes. «The seat defines the mind». They
went to squabble over jobs – but what do we want? The Party of Regions to keep
ruling us? Tell me who we can appoint instead of Turchynov? Somebody good who
did not steal. So who is that?
- We spoke about the Territory Communities that would not
have hierarchy.
We want to build toilet in one second.
Please, build one. We want to rebuild the country in one week. Let's pitch up a tent in half minute. It
needs an hour, right? We want to rebuild the country by changing the president
and the Verkhovna Rada but we are forgetting that those seats are taken by the
officials who sabotage. We blame it on the army and Turchynov. I apologize but
the Joint Staff and officers of military units are sabotaging the orders. If
they threw the troops on Perekop with no helmets while helmets are sold to the
right and left. Who is to blame? Turchynov? Yatsenyuk? Or Parubiy? When the
information is being blocked. There are helmets but they are not distributed to
the soldiers – what is it? It is a sabotage. We are saying, ‘this guy should be
replaced, this one, too, everybody…’ But what’s the deal with the oligarchs?
They robbed this army and now we are giving away our last pennies. Did they
support the army? Why are we not talking about the oligarchs and not demanding
from them? Again, these are manipulations that make us run after shadows.
- Whose manipulations?
Of the ones who want to run us into a stable. How? They want to
destabilize it, bend the top managers.
- But you are saying to not accuse
the opposition…
Accusation is important but a smart one. They should be pressured. I am
admitting that there is no difference, no matter if it is the Block of Julia
Tymoshenko or the Party of Regions. Both Prosecutor’s Office and militia
are trying to keep the status quo. They
kicked out Yanukovych but now they are splitting spheres of influence and are
interested in keeping their status quo in Ukraine. Our task is to not let it
happen.
- Is change of the system possible? Is incorporating certain
methods after the Maidan possible? Is there a possibility to enrich this Maidan
with knowledge and practices that would let the new relationships develop in
future?
We are talking about the paramilitary
Maidan, right? I mean the Maidan I am boiling in. But along with that, the Maidan
is not limited to the tents. The Maidan is now all over Ukraine. Some people
are wearing masks and some are not, there are overruns, postrevolutinary syndrome,
or the revolutionary syndrome. And along with that there are people who are
working intellectually. Rimma Bilotserkivska leads workshops, lectures. Lanovyi,
Bohomolets, Ruslana, Hromadskyi Sektor, the youth. I was talking about the Maidan I live in but at the same
time there is the whole group of people who are working on all of other issues.
Take, for instance, that Lustration Committee that Ihor Sobolev is working on,
or that Chornovol that works on the anti-corruption committee, those are the
ones that seem to be legalized. There is also a bunch of activists, not to
mention groups of people who work on abuse detecting and who take testimonies from eyewitnesses about what happened on
the 18th and 20th, they are seeking killed people. The Maidan is not limited to
just what I was telling. But there’s a fact that sotnyas at the Maidan are
dominating. Yesterday Ruslana came out – she already had concluded something.
Bohomolets is doing her job – that’s an example. There are also dozens of
people; activists on locations are doing particular jobs on rebuilding the
state.
- Is the 3rd Maidan possible?
Even the 10th or 20th are possible. The
Maidan is in the heart of every person. It will last as long as needed. Until
we create the
state that we want.
- You spoke about a commune you work on. Is this lifestyle
possible to advise to people?
What do you mean by commune? If you
mean the Maidan then that's a commune.
- I mean the time when you united, long before the Maidan.
That can't be called a commune. There
was a period, for instance, when we drove to a lake side and lived like at
the Maidan with no superior or a
coordinator – people just came and pitched a tent town and for a week, or two,
or a month or just as long as was
needed, lived as families. And we helped one another. The Maidan,
that's what a commune is now.
- But is there a certain lifestyle? Like, there is this
system and that system? How possible is it to incorporate this lifestyle into
the everyday life? Because on one hand it was an extreme situation, on the other
hand – you lived like that.
We can't always live as a commune in
tents with families all the time. Everybody has their apartment, their
business. But we should transfer this spirit of the Maidan and these principles
it is founded on, they are collective self-defence, collaboration and
cooperation. When we all immediately help one another if we can. Why not
transfer it on our society?
- How must this system look?
It looks the way you make it. There is
no a recipe 'You should do this at 8 o'clock and you should do this'. It
depends on a need and ability of each person. We are developing this network
further on. It worked rather effectively but it was limited by the amount of
people. Now it is expanding. For example, when somebody is in a different town
and needs help – you approach people who are in the network and they help.
Unknown before people are also ready to work. We practiced it, and it worked
very effectively.
- Where is water, electricity here from? Who is responsible?
How does it work in the Maidan?
That is self-organizing. One of the guys
found where we could plug in. We came over, negotiated – and plugged in.
Conditions are negotiable. Some help us for free, some charge. When we needed
to get the water, I went to the market, they gave me pipes for free, for the
Maidan. Somebody else just gave a discount. Or sometimes you would just pay out
of your pocket. Mostly they would give a discount or give for free. So that's
how it works – everybody does what they can.
- Where is the water coming from?
From somewhere.)
- Is it that bus?
Yes, it used to be an office on the
wheels. It was burned on the 19th, at about 4.30am.
- Is this the bus-office that burned down?
Yes.
- It was a red Icarus.
It had a toilet, wardrobe, shower,
kitchenette, everything legalized. There were 24 seats and 9 sleeping berths. We
planned for 21 sleeping berths...
What is the Maidan? It's an alive body.
But we want this body to only have one artery and supply all our body with
blood, but only through the one artery. There are arteries, veins, capillaris,
there is a certain structure of the live body, so each of us gets some life
supply, or information. We can get it from anywhere we want and in any way we
want. It is very encouraging that all the processes are happening
simultaneously and independently from one another. So the most effective
project will be the one that survives. And there are dozens of organizations
that now exist formally and informally, IT-sotnyas, civil movements,
associations.
Everybody is moving independently, some
of them are coordinated and the other ones are not. Sooner or later it will
grow into something constructive, and this constructive will guide the others.
Like the Automaidan or Bohomolets who were never known before but now ring
everywhere. Before that Ruslana rang, then Ihor Lutsenko, or Bulatov, sometimes
Yarosh. There is a rotation going on now, it's a change and accummulation of a
certain human resourse.
Ideas get produced, and how will these
ideas be perceived?
Clearly, we'd like to have an effective
model in order to generate all legislative movements at the Maidan, so that
they demand and pass them in this specific wording. Maybe even that we'll get
to.
- Did Makhnovism, Arab Spring or other
total global events, moments of history give certain political guidance? How do
you take world practices and how do they work? What are your actions in regards
to the world efforts of the past and present? What are the points of reference
for you and for people from the Maidan? What other dreams and discourses you heard
on Maidan?
You named some of those interesting
initiatives like Arab spring, for instance. Makhnovism is close to us, it's a
Ukrainian phenomenon. There are Che Gevara, there is Kim Chen Ir etc. I would
say, I did not try to prepare myself for the Maidan, just like most people.
Learning other people's experience in order to make a revolution – none of the
people who I know did it. As a historian by education I more or less learned Makhno’s practice outside the
curriculum because it was kept secret. Holodnyi Yar and other liberating
movements… We have much more rich history and much more powerful historical
basis that has shone now and that we should study, instead of borrowing Arab
Springs and others. Our official history was castrated. It was artificially
limited by the 10th century because that’s when Christianity came. And showing
that it started with Christianity connects us to Russia etc. But whatever has
happened before, we don’t know. We have a thousand-year-long history of
Cossacks who were a caste of warriors. We had a big proto-cyvilisation that
affected the entire world. We only know Cossacks by Hohol. But in fact he made
up these characters. Cossacks had no single Christian church, especially of
Moscow Patriarchate. There were Cossacks kharakternyks, pagans who had knowledge from thousands of
years. They had not as much paranatural abilities as knowledge from wizards and
witches.
The word 'vid'ma' (witch) comes from a word 'vyedat'
(to know) but we are taught this character is negative. For some reason we
limit ourselves to the history of Kyivan Rus' while in fact Kyivan Rus' used to
be a state formation that was dependent on a different state formation. For instance, there
is a legend about Zmiy Horynych and Kozhumyaka.
Historians know how to read legends. They are personified pieces of history. So
Kozhumyaka overcame a knyaz’
(prince) whose name was Zmiy Horynych
and who was a representative of an army of a state-tribal formation that
was controling Kyiv (Polyans). Polyans paid taxes to Zmiy, Horynych is from the
word Horyn'. Horyn' is Volyn', i.e. Khmelnytskyi, Ternopil, Rivne districts.
Perhaps over there there was a state formation that we simply do not want to
know about. For instance, we would easily understand what Slovenians talk
about. We have common tribal roots because they came from Carpathians though in the seventh century they moved to
Balcans. And it is as easy to talk with them as with Russians. But we have left
out all of these layers. So we have a lot of experience, many examples, and
although Cossacks are
translated into kitch – we contain the spirit of Cossacks. These genes, they do
exist. And our guys who were struggling unarmed and did not go back until the
tires were burned and barricades were built – did not step back. Perhaps, not
every nation can do this.
- It’s stubbornness.
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